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1:55pm Jun 20 2013
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Normal User
Posts: 4,093
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Disclaimer: 14brokenmirrors recommended I take this to the forums. Specifically she said the Off-Topics but if it's not too mature for Off Topic then it's not too mature for here. Do not shut this down staff, it is perfectly warranted and a staff told me directly to take it to forums. Thank you.
I'm tired. I'm very, very tired with the way things are handled in the shoutbox. It's 13+ because of the law, and because of the potential of "mature topics" that may arise, isn't it? Yet every time certain topics are brought up, I am silenced along with others.
For example. Already on three separate occasions in the past 30 days or so, the topic of homosexuality has been brought up while I was in the shoutbox. There are always one or two people who "disagree" with it. Then the discussion begins. I haven't seen it go sour and vicious yet, it always stays civil, and still every time the staff decide it's time to "move on" because they think the topic's too sensitive.
Which is silly, considering they wouldn't handle racism the same way. If someone "disagreed" with people of colour and said they thought being black was wrong then I'm sure that person would be warned quite quickly. Or if someone decided they "disagreed" with women and thought being a woman wasn't right. Again, they would (hopefully) be dealt with.
This is no different from homosexuality. I propose an addition to the rules. I re-read them recently and did NOT, to my horror, see anything banning discrimination based on gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation etc. This is a thing that most petsites have-- it's honestly very disappointing that this isn't in the Res rules, considering we have people from all over the world from all walks of life.
The rules need to change, and mature topics should be allowed in the SB as long as they are not becoming vicious and harmful. That is its purpose after all.
  
Dustfeather -> Sparrow -> Universe |
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4:06pm Jun 20 2013 (last edited on 4:15pm Jun 20 2013)
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Moderator
Posts: 2,155
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The shoutbox is intended to be a fun place for chatting and socializing. It is also an integrated part of each page of the website, set to "ON" by default. We aren't forbidding the discussion of mature topics when you are asked to drop a discussion in the SB. If it is not a topic which breaks the rules, it is perfectly fine to continue discussion in the forums. The chat happens in real-time, updating everyone on the site who elects to leave it at its default setting, which is "ON". When users are expressing discomfort (especially about a sensitive topic) in the chat, it is most likely going to be shut down in the chat. Forums do not update in real time, are not an integrated part of every page on the site, and you do not have to click and read if you don't want to. It is much less intrusive. This is why you are free to continue discussion on the forums when asked to drop the discussion in the chat. =)
Your concerns over discrimination not being addressed in the rules is actually covered in the very first rule; we felt it was the absolute most important. Discriminating against another for any of the reasons you listed would obviously break this rule.
1. Be respectful to each other. There will be no harassment toward staff or users for any reason. Personal insults, name calling, degrading remarks, and other such harassment will not be tolerated. If a user is being rude, do not fight back. Report it immediately and ignore it. ETA: What if we changed the second sentence to "There will be no harrasment or discrimination"? Would that make the wording more clear/satisfactory?
＊*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚♫ and the haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate ♫＊*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚
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5:33pm Jun 20 2013 (last edited on 5:36pm Jun 20 2013)
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Normal User
Posts: 4,093
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"The shoutbox is intended to be a fun place for chatting and socializing."
Oh, I see, so when my friend comes into the shoutbox and wants comfort about her dog that just died, or another friend who's friend just died in a car crash, or a user yesterday who needed help with a very tough situation between her parents... I guess that just isn't fun enough. Give 'em a good old warning for me. ^^
There is no rule against serious topics. Serious things are a part of life. The shoutbox can be fun, yes, but the users aren't in denial about the issues in the world and the occasional moment of solemnity won't kill them. I'm sure most of us are mature enough for that. Besides, squashing those topics-- when they are doing no harm whatsoever-- when some of us deal with being squashed in the same way ever day of our lives is more horrible than you seem to realize. Not being free to defend ourselves POLITELY, because no, there was no rudeness going around, is very silly.
"When users are expressing discomfort (especially about a sensitive
topic) in the chat, it is most likely going to be shut down in the chat."
This is a good thing. However, they were not ex
pression discomfort about the topic, they were expressing discomfort about what a specific user mentioned about their very personal life. :) You didn't address that user directly if I remember correctly. I'm sure many can attest to that. I was in no way related. Do not use things that I was not involved in against me.
"Personal insults, name calling, degrading remarks," doesn't cover discrimination, Broken. You can be discriminatory without being blatant about it. Saying that people having negative opinions towards homosexuality is totally a-okay because it's their opinion is quite discriminatory. ^^ I have a feeling you wouldn't feel the same if someone said "I don't hate women, but I think being a woman is wrong."
"What if we changed the second sentence to "There will be no harrasment or discrimination"?"
And that's a bit closer to what I was hoping for. "There will be no discrimination against users based on gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc" and whatever else you can think to add. That would be better. According to you, the definition of discrimination can sometimes be opinion-based, so I feel this would be necessary.
Dustfeather -> Sparrow -> Universe |
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5:52pm Jun 20 2013
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Moderator
Posts: 2,155
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I'll leave it to Patrick to address most of your response. I have no idea what his input will be, but I have asked him to step in since the point of asking discussions to be dropped is being missed.
As for this statement: "Do not use things that I was not involved in against me." I did not use anything against anyone in my response; can you please clarify what you feel I used against you? I was speaking in general about when we ask that topics be discontinued, not about any specific instance.
＊*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚♫ and the haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate ♫＊*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚
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6:17pm Jun 20 2013 (last edited on 6:19pm Jun 20 2013)
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Normal User
Posts: 4,093
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I would but the statement itself is inappropriate for forums. It involved an extremely personal thing a user did with someone in real life. That was the only thing users were expressing discomfort about.
You asked me to drop it since users were "expressing discomfort" about my topic, while they were not. I was not a part of the statement that that user made, therefore something unrelated to my specific topic was being used against me. The rest of the discussion was perfectly appropriate and civil. That specific user alone said something inappropriate that made others uncomfortable.
This was in the shoutbox mind you, not here in forums. Felt I should clarify that in case that was part of the confusion.
I have not missed the point of dropped discussions. They SHOULD be dropped when it's necessary. It was not, however, necessary at all. No rules were being broken and no one was being rude.
Thank you for forwarding it to Patrick. I look forward to his response.
Dustfeather -> Sparrow -> Universe |
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6:51pm Jun 20 2013 (last edited on 7:20pm Jun 20 2013)
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Moderator
Posts: 2,155
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I did not see a statement so inappropriate it could not be repeated here in the forums. It is possible that it was missed, because the conversation was going fairly quickly. I apologize if that is the case and would appreciate it being reported.
Staff will not ask that a conversation be dropped unless we feel that it is indeed necessary. I understand if your opinion differs from that, but that is the reason we have staff. It is their job to make those decisions. Also, to clarify, I wasn't saying that you specifically are missing the point. I meant in general lately this has been an issue.
＊*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚♫ and the haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate ♫＊*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚
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11:41am Jun 21 2013
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Normal User
Posts: 1,274
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I hope you don't mind if I put my two cent's worth in here.
Personally, I dislike it when a sensitive topic is dropped when it was remaining civil. If people weren't getting all angry and/or ranting at each other, why drop it? But in the end it does come down to a staff member's call, whether or whether not a user (or users) believe it is the right call.
As in the one incident where (may not be the incident you two are referring to) I was actually expressing my discomfort towards a certain user's inappropriate comment. I apologize if it was misinterpreted, next time I'll be sure to make a better effort to clarify what I am expressing my discomfort about. I don't have any discomfort on most, if not all of the sensitive topics, but I will usually refrain from taking part in them because I don't really have anything to say about them. I wish more mature topics (homosexuality, etc.) could be discussed more often, but frankly I don't believe that everyone that uses the shoutbox is mature enough for it. I have no problem with it, I consider myself to be mature for my age, and have actually been told by other people that they thought I was 20, 18, 16, all ages much older than the age I actually am.
But that's aside from the point. I would like an addition to the rules, because it would clarify things better, not to mention maybe help preventing trolls coming in during a sensitive topic and going, "u gais r stupid u suc" and then going on and discriminating other people. Even though they are still breaking the rules because they aren't respecting other users, I think a revision would still help that from happening, even if it doesn't help that much, I think a little is better than nothing.
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5:48pm Jun 21 2013 (last edited on 5:58pm Jun 21 2013)
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Moderator
Posts: 2,155
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It is important to remember that maturity isn't the only required ingredient for certain types of discussions. This is a petsite first and foremost and the content in general should reflect that. It isn't a debate site or a group rights site. A person can be very mature and still become very uncomfortable with the discussion of certain topics, particularly ones that they do not expect to see on a site promoting virtual pets. And again, no one is forbidding discussion of these topics, we're just asking that you take it to a less intrusive medium - the forums for example.
Getting angry and ranting are not the only things that warrant dropping of a discussion. When the site members are expressing discomfort and leaving the site because of a topic of discussion, this hurts the site. The expressions of discomfort do not come in only via the SB, btw. It is very common to receive instant messages, notes on facebook, and rmails expressing discomfort. Staff did not simply put rules down that we made up out of thin air. There was a considerable amount of time, consideration, and discussion of each rule and the need for it. Observations based on past experience play a part as well as considering "what would a parent visiting our site for the first time think of this environment?" etc. The decision is a lot wider than "can the people in the SB handle it".
Also, the COPPA law (under 13 rule) has absolutely nothing to do with being mature, otherwise we would not allow parental consent forms to be signed granting access before 13. The law has given that number in age as a general guideline for when a child is educated enough to make safe decisions, and also to prevent collection of personal data of children younger than that age. Most places that you sign up for on the internet gather your information and sell it to advertising companies. This is why it is important to check the privacy policy each time you sign up somewhere. Rescreatu does not sell your information.
＊*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚♫ and the haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate ♫＊*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚
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10:54pm Jun 21 2013 (last edited on 11:03pm Jun 21 2013)
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Normal User
Posts: 4,093
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Thanks Flo. I agree completely. Good to have more than one staff member's opinion on this.
"It is important to remember that maturity isn't the only required
ingredient for certain types of discussions. This is a petsite first and
foremost and the content in general should reflect that."
We discuss everything on the shoutbox, even things that are explicitly prohibited in the rules (ie. sexual innuendo), and yet no one seems to have an issue with it. It is not just users, but staff too that do this. I have seen discussion topics of all sorts. Topics such as homosexuality should not be an exception to this, particularly since everyone was being civil and mature about it.
"It isn't a
debate site or a group rights site."
So? That doesn't mean the discussion of such things are forbidden. We be free to discuss what we please as long as it is not harmful to other users or making anyone uncomfortable, which it was not, as Florence clarified for us. If an issue of misogyny came up, I doubt the discussion would be shut down because people were defending women, despite it being a debate and discussion of groups rights.
Besides, I very clearly remember you taking part in the discussion, Broken, trying to defend your own point and even bringing your religion into it.
"When the site members are expressing discomfort and leaving the site
because of a topic of discussion, this hurts the site."
Well, I'm expressing discomfort here and now about the way you and some users are treating this topic. Is that less important than those who are uncomfortable with the idea of homosexuality? A user's comfort is clearly important. That makes the users who are being told they are wrong for the way they are important, not just the users who express discomfort about the topic. You are implying that you'd rather that discriminatory, homophobic people stay on the site just for the sake of having users. Is the quality of the users not more important than the quantity? A racist user would not be treated the same way, I am absolutely positive of that.
If the site is more concerned with keeping all of its users regardless of how they treat others then there is a serious issue here.
Dustfeather -> Sparrow -> Universe |
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10:58pm Jun 21 2013
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Moderator
Posts: 2,155
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You are a bit confused, Dustfeather. There is no one saying that we can never discuss the topic of homosexuality in the SB. I am simply stating that when that subject, as well as any other subject, becomes one that stirs a significant amount of discomfort in the chat, staff is going to ask that the discussion be discontinued there and moved elsewhere.
＊*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚♫ and the haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate ♫＊*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚
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11:04pm Jun 21 2013 (last edited on 11:06pm Jun 21 2013)
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Normal User
Posts: 4,093
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Did you not read Florence's post? The discomfort being expressed was about what one user said, not the topic I was involved in. No one in the chat was expressing discomfort about the topic of homosexuality. Therefore, the discussion did not need to be shut down.
Dustfeather -> Sparrow -> Universe |
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11:05pm Jun 21 2013 (last edited on 11:07pm Jun 21 2013)
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Moderator
Posts: 2,155
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I am not speaking about that one instance. I am speaking in OVERALL terms. Perhaps there was a misunderstanding in the instance you reference - I asked you to please provide a report in a response to a previous post and I got nothing from you or anyone else.
＊*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚♫ and the haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate ♫＊*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚
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11:15pm Jun 21 2013 (last edited on 11:26pm Jun 21 2013)
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Normal User
Posts: 4,093
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Then I agree with you, for the most part. A topic that is making users uncomfortable should usually be shut down. Not always though.
Let's speak in general terms though, since you are keen on that. If a user was being sexist, and another user came to you saying they were uncomfortable with women or the discussion of women's basic rights, would the discussion be stopped because one discriminatory user is uncomfortable, or would it be more important to deal with the sexist user?
After all, there is more than one uncomfortable user in this case. Are the ones being discriminated against less important than the discriminatory user?
I feel as if it is a little silly to put overall comfort of ANYONE first if their treatment of others is wrong. Like I said, it is unsettling that Res is more focused on the number of users they keep than the treatment of the ones here. Some opinions are just plain wrong and should not be tolerated.
EDIT: A report on the user who made the comment? Please specify. If that is the case I will try my best to find their username and do so. It had numbers in it. Even so, I am not sure it warrants a report, since they stopped upon being asked to.
Dustfeather -> Sparrow -> Universe |
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11:26pm Jun 21 2013
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Moderator
Posts: 2,155
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Regarding the report - that is in response to the inappropriate comment you referenced in your 3rd and 4th post, but you could not post it on the forums. I didn't see anything said like that, and it is entirely possible I missed it. I am absolutely clueless what that statement is.
In general terms, if it is only a single user who is uncomfortable with a discussion, then no, of course we would not ask that the convo be dropped. It is when a number of people start expressing discomfort that the discussion is asked to be moved elsewhere, just like always.
＊*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚♫ and the haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate ♫＊*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚
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11:33pm Jun 21 2013 (last edited on 11:34pm Jun 21 2013)
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Normal User
Posts: 4,093
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I will Rmail you directly about who made the statement and what it was in that case. I don't think it's deserving of a full report of that user, since they dropped it when they were asked.
You have not addressed the situation I presented to you, though. I understand that a conversation should usually be dropped when it is making users uncomfortable-- but what if it is an issue of the treatment of other users? Should the conversation really just be silenced and left at that if there are users being discriminatory? If Res cares about the comfort of its users then an issue like that should be addressed and defended rather than simply shushed.
Luckily, as we go back to my original point, a rule specifically against discrimination would solve this. Rather than the whole conversation needing to be stopped, the discriminating user would just be dealt with, and not tolerated. :)
Dustfeather -> Sparrow -> Universe |
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11:49pm Jun 21 2013
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Moderator
Posts: 2,155
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If we are going to disallow any and all discrimination, you do realize that goes both ways right?
Discrimination does not only happen when people are against something, it happens when they are for it also. Just because something is on the same side of the fence that we are does not exclude it from being discrimination. In fact, the whole reason I chimed in the conversation is because I saw a discriminatory comment being made against those who have an opposing view on homosexuality.
With that in mind, a rule that prohibits any type of discrimination would likely result in forbidding the topics altogether.
＊*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚♫ and the haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate ♫＊*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚
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11:54pm Jun 21 2013
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Normal User
Posts: 4,093
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Dustfeather -> Sparrow -> Universe |
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11:59pm Jun 21 2013
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Moderator
Posts: 2,155
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Word for word? I don't recall. The gist of it was that everyone who takes a stance against homosexuality is ignorant and wrong.
＊*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚♫ and the haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate ♫＊*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚
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12:25am Jun 22 2013 (last edited on 12:30am Jun 22 2013)
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Normal User
Posts: 4,093
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So you would consider the statement "Sexist people are ignorant and wrong" to be discrimination against sexist people? Sorry, that's very silly.
It is very dependent on what you consider discrimination. There are things that are very obviously discrimination and things that are more of a grey area.
A. Discrimination against people for things that a person cannot help and are often born with, ie. gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, social class, mental illness etc. is very obviously wrong, since it is something they are unable to control and affects no one but the individual.
B. Judging and discriminating against one's actions are very different. Is it not fair to be against a murderer? They were not born a murderer, after all: it is a conscious decision that they made that affects those around them.
Now, the difference between A and B, and the difference between discrimination against homosexuals and homophobes is that one of them does not hurt or even affect others' lives, while the other often does. I don't think I need to tell you which is which.
Discriminating against someone for something they cannot help should be what is against the rules.
Dustfeather -> Sparrow -> Universe |
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12:37am Jun 22 2013 (last edited on 12:45am Jun 22 2013)
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Moderator
Posts: 2,155
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What exactly is it that you are asking of staff then? I get the feeling from your posts that you want us to disallow anyone to express an opposing opinion, but allow anyone to express an opinion that agrees. That isn't going to happen.
We can allow civil discussion that shows views from both sides, or we can ban discussion on the topic altogether. This goes for any subject.
BTW, lumping everyone who disagrees with homosexuality into the category of homophobe is incredibly discriminatory. And stating that the lives of those people are never affected by it is a wrong assumption as well. Are you starting to see why it would be biased and unfair to only allow one-sided discussions?
＊*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚♫ and the haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate ♫＊*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚
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