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11:34am Jul 6 2014
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Moderator
Posts: 2,155
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I don't think it's that the art department doesn't WANT to share information, I think they simply don't have the time to provide a lot of detailed feedback and are looking for artists who are perhaps more developed/experienced and would not require more than a minimal amount of training.
＊*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚♫ and the haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate ♫＊*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚
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2:28pm Jul 6 2014 (last edited on 2:30pm Jul 6 2014)
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Normal User
Posts: 969
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I agree with Katie saying that it's basically the same as a support department member giving an applicant answers to the questions.
Say I apply for support staff and get rejected. I can't go rmail a member of support and be like "Okay, so how can I improve? I really want the job." The support member can't just tell me "well, your answer here was kind of questionable, and here's another reason pertaining to your past behavior that we don't really look for in a staff applicant."
By my asking that, I'm basically saying "Okay, you don't want me now, so what can I do to ensure I get hired later?"
Now, if I applied for artist or writer and did the same thing, the artist or writer I rmailed couldn't be like "Your syntax doesn't really make sense in a few spots here" or "The leg on this pet looks kinda wonky and the head isn't proportional."
Again, by my asking, I'm pretty much saying the same thing: "You don't want to hire me right now, so what can I do to make you change your mind and hire me later?"
I apologize if that doesn't make a ton of sense, but honestly it makes total sense in my head as to why artists and writers would not give applicants feedback. Service department applicants don't get feedback either.
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4:00pm Jul 6 2014
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Normal User
Posts: 2,282
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Why not just point out certain areas, like " take a look at questions 5,6, and 7' or " look at your second paragraph" but do not tell them what is questionable or wrong just let them figure it out themselves. self improvement with a little direction. and if they do not find out whats wrong then at least you tried. and honestly if people want to be hired, why not give them a little boost to help? don't tell them flat out whats wrong, but if they are asking what can they do to improve, doesn't that show they want to try? and not just giving up? its like teachers curving a test, its not cheating if everyone can ask and effects everyone applying. some may chose not to and thats their deal.
and i am seeing different kinds of answers from staff members, is there an answer that is made from ALL staff present about this topic? so staff are on the same page? |
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4:06pm Jul 6 2014
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Normal User
Posts: 969
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I can't imagine that they have time to do that for every single app they receive, Twilight, especially if we're talking about all the departments. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, and this in no way reflects any other staff member's opinions on the subject, but I personally think if you can't figure out what you need to fix on your own, you might not be perfectly fit for the job.
As for different kinds of answers, I'm not really sure what you're asking? Answers to what question, specifically?
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4:20pm Jul 6 2014
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Moderator
Posts: 910
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To me it just seems like an awful lot to go through each person's application and individually send out specific feedback. We already debated over sending out rejection letters because that takes away from other things we are currently working on. I just don't really see how it's necessary, either. Besides, I really am sticking with the fact that I think feedback can be considered giving away answers. It's obvious most of the time if a user would be capable of being efficiently trained and make a good staff member fairly quickly in the app. This means that sometimes applications just don't get read all the way through. So it would honestly just be a loooot of work to give out feedback. I've stated before this is just MY own opinion (I am not speaking on behalf of other staff members).
I think if someone is going to apply for writer/artist and they get rejected, they should be able to figure out what they need to work on, and if they cannot figure out what they should work on, then maybe they aren't quite ready to be fit for the job. A huge part of the artist and writer positions is being able to manipulate your own styles and creativity to fit that of the site's. With ALL staff apps, if a person rejected can't find out how they could improve their app, I think they might not quite be fit for the job. And even that aside, sometimes we get some good apps, but we also take past behavior into consideration. And we can't just say "you had a great app, but your behavior is keeping you out of the job." That's just not quite fair. Plus, this has actually happened before and these situations were not pretty x.x
Maybe we might not all be on the same page about why we don't give feedback, but we are on the same page about the fact that it is unlikely for feedback to be given in the future.
We have started giving out rejection rMails due to user desire, but I doubt that we will start sending out feedback for the various reasons you can see throughout the comments of staff members in this thread regarding this conversation. My apologies</3
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4:28pm Jul 6 2014
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Normal User
Posts: 2,282
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first, not everyone needs the help. just like school, some people get better grades in school, some don't do hot. but the some people who do not do too hot may ask the teacher for help, and off the teacher is not going to be like " here are all the answers to the tests and homework" as help, they are going to instead tell them what they need to do to be successful, and guide them in the right direction and its up to the student if they sink or swim. i mean a teacher telling a student " if you can't figure out what you need to fix on your own, you might not be perfectly fit for the grade" when they ask for improvement, like what teacher says that?
so what makes apps and staff any different? if they have the courage to ask, why not guide them? don't have time? um not everyone will ask what they did wrong. and they are asking what they can improve on, not how they can improve. so telling them "question 5,6, and 7 are off." its not saying what is off, how its off, or any specific detail to why, its a very general statement. and if all staff have the time to look through the apps together to evaluate what was wrong, they should already know what is off, and what they can and can not say about an app. also, its not like writer and cm apps grow on trees, wolf even said that apps are short for both categories and both are needed desperately. so why not help out the ones who actually want to help this site, the few people who apply? if you truly need that much help, why hasn't there been a single cm or writer hired in like 5-6 months? are the people who applied all just terrible and not good enough to be trained to be better, a lost hope? or is the need really not as bad as it seems?
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4:39pm Jul 6 2014 (last edited on 4:53pm Jul 6 2014)
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Moderator
Posts: 910
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Staffing is not like an academic test. It's not really something that can be learned. An applicant needs a certain state of mind or judgment to be able to efficiently do their job and complete proper training for a position like Moderator or Support staff. One does not just wake up one day and have the suitable judgment that is needed for Support/mod. It comes from life experience and simply maturity. That's why I'm sort of against giving feedback. It's hard to give out feedback without explicitly defining what could be improved on an app, which would be an unfair advantage. I really respect that some people want to know what they can do better on an app.
I think when I was 13 I sent in a Moderator app and was turned down and I asked what I could do to improve. I didn't get any feedback. But I waited like 2 years before I submitted another staff application. The second time around I was a lo more mature than when I was 13. I've been staff for almost a year (one year at the end of this month) and even now I am more mature than I was a year ago. It shows more maturity when someone can figure out things like this for themself. That's why I'm saying it.
And also, with apps like art/CM/Writer. There are some ways to improve art and writing. But at the end of the day, you're not going to change and be amazing the next day. It takes time. Let's talk about CM. You can't learn creativity over night. I actually wrote an essay once about how creativity is not something that is learned, but rather created over lengths of time throughout a person's life.
Not all trainees for Writers or artists get their colors. I believe wolfspi has told you specifically that we could have like 10 Writer trainees and you would never know because they don't need their colors. Artists and Writers just have to write and submit their writing/art on boards or to other staff. They don't need anything on-site.
And we haven't hired any CMs because we've gotten very few apps which were turned down for various different reasons. Meaning maybe the apps weren't quite what we were looking for, or maybe a user's behavior is questionable, and we don't want users thinking that bad behavior is okay for staff because it is not. Past MAing won't get you disqualified for the job (lots of people have MAed in the past. Including some staff memebrs), but things like involvement of drama in public areas of the site, or lots of warnings for disrespectful comments, etc. will make us think twice before hiring someone.
I really do not wish to argue this and I am sorry if it is coming across this way, but I doubt that feedback is going to be given out unless 14brokenmirrors or another staff comes in and overrules me by saying that we'll start giving out feedback.
I see a lot of ways giving feedback could be badly manipulated against staff and I have had enough with people accusing staff of things we don't do and twisting things around and making us out tobe the bad guys when we are not. I see how feedback can be used to fuel bad accusations and I would not feel comfortable having staff give out lots of feedback. |
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4:48pm Jul 6 2014
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Normal User
Posts: 2,282
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never said anything about specific feedback. and assuming users, who rarely disrespect staff and their peers, would do such a thing, is just like what? they asked? and if staff have the truth, why stress over everyone believing them when you have the actual proof of what happened? what can they possibly twist? most people on this site are actually decent people, and i do not think people will blame you for anything if you help them out. "believe wolfspi has told you specifically that we could have like 10 Writer trainees and you would never know because they don't need their colors." and why is it a secret tbh? theres no need for it to be a secret? and i was not requesting every single person to be given out feedback? and btw the whole point of colors is for people to know you are staff in training or part time, right? |
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4:53pm Jul 6 2014
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Moderator
Posts: 2,155
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Sometimes an applicant just isn't a good fit as a staff member. There are various reasons as to why that might be so, and it is never based on one person's opinion alone, but is based on concerns voiced individually by various members of staff from all departments. Usually in those situations it is also not a good idea to tell that person they aren't a good fit as we have concerns about how they might react to hearing that and the actions they might take. So would it be fair for us to give comprehensive feedback to some, and then not much of anything to the ones who are not a good fit? No.
In the big scheme of things, it is more fair to everyone involved, and it is more of a good use of valuable time and resources, to limit our rejection responses to something generic. This is not a class, it is not school, and we are not your teachers. When applicants come along who meet ALL the criteria we are looking for, we know it, and those are the ones who are selected. There is no single "right answer" in any application for staff. The content of the responses given, how they are given, and the consideration behind them as well as other factors are all very revealing about a person's knowledge, character, personality, temperament, and ability to work well with others in a team environment, as well as the ability to take constructive criticism. Therefore it is fairly obvious from the beginning who is likely to be a successful candidate as a staff member and who is not (applications are reviewed with no identifying information about the person who submitted them, by the way. There is no username attached or any other information that would reveal the person who submitted it until a significant amount of feedback has been given - this is exactly how revealing the applications are). Giving tips and coaching beyond this point are honestly not going to be very helpful. If you apply and are not selected, you are absolutely encouraged to apply again at another point, because personal growth and maturity are the things that are most likely to change between your application this time and the next and that is what is most likely to make the difference if you are a person who is cut out to be a staff member. Some people are simply NOT cut out to be the type of staff that Rescreatu is looking for, and there is nothing wrong with that. It does not mean there is anything wrong with you, or that you are less of a person. It just takes a few certain types and of course we aren't all going to fit those types; that's what diversity is.
＊*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚♫ and the haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate ♫＊*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚
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4:53pm Jul 6 2014 (last edited on 5:03pm Jul 6 2014)
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Moderator
Posts: 910
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I edited my post xD
*edit* I agree with Jenn's post ^ yes |
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4:56pm Jul 6 2014 (last edited on 4:57pm Jul 6 2014)
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Normal User
Posts: 969
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Lol I got ninja'd twice so I'm just gonna edit this out and say ^ yes look up there
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5:18pm Jul 6 2014
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Normal User
Posts: 2,282
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Usually in those situations it is also not a good idea to tell that person they aren't a good fit as we have concerns about how they might react to hearing that and the actions they might take.
omg what am i do? im gonna spam the shoutbox till i get banned? like that solves nothing?
and why is there supposed coloress staff btw? i never saw an answer to that. |
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5:19pm Jul 6 2014 (last edited on 5:24pm Jul 6 2014)
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Normal User
Posts: 969
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Just because you wouldn't do it personally doesn't mean other people wouldn't get angry and say things they shouldn't if they were turned down for behavior issues.
Katie put the color thing more eloquently than I did v down there o3o
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5:21pm Jul 6 2014 (last edited on 5:57pm Jul 6 2014)
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Moderator
Posts: 910
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They're not "supposed" to be uncolored. It just takes a while for the people who have the tools to change colors to change some people's colors, plus it is preferred that all trainees get colors at the same time.
We have had several instances in the past where a staff member has talked with people who have been rejected and mentioned why they haven't been accepted. These users have used this information against staff (like in accusations I was talking about earlier) and making us look to be the bad guys. There have also been times where there have been completely unexpected reactions (see 14brokenmirrors's post below) |
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5:41pm Jul 6 2014
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Normal User
Posts: 709
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I'm a little confused about something here. If your username is not revealed when staff reviews and app how can you know how they behave and such if you don't know who it is?
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5:52pm Jul 6 2014 (last edited on 5:53pm Jul 6 2014)
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Normal User
Posts: 777
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Usernames are only revealed if the user is under consideration for hire after reviews :)
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5:53pm Jul 6 2014
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Moderator
Posts: 910
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^
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5:54pm Jul 6 2014
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Normal User
Posts: 969
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"applications are reviewed with no identifying information about the person who submitted them, by the way. There is no username attached or any other information that would reveal the person who submitted it until a significant amount of feedback has been given - this is exactly how revealing the applications are"
^ from Broken's above post.
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5:55pm Jul 6 2014
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Moderator
Posts: 2,155
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The way an answer is given can be surprisingly revealing. That's why I say there is no necessarily wrong or right answer on these applications; there is a psychology behind the particular questions asked.
And Twilight, it isn't as simple a concern as whether or not a user will spam the shoutbox. We actually care about our users and we have encountered some instances where very unexpected emotional reactions with potentially life-changing outcomes were given. It's incredibly unfair of you to make the assumption that this is all about some trivial spam on the shoutbox.
＊*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚♫ and the haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate ♫＊*•̩̩͙✩•̩̩͙*˚
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6:09pm Jul 6 2014 (last edited on 6:42pm Jul 6 2014)
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Normal User
Posts: 4,093
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Okay. I want to try putting this response in a different way that will hopefully make you guys understand it a bit better, in response to just this question:
"Why can't I get advice to improve on my apps?"
Think of it this way: How is it any different from asking for advice BEFORE submitting an application? If a user came up to me, about to submit their Moderator application, and asked me to look over their app I could not. This is obvious; it is unfair to give them hints and tips towards having a higher chance at the job.
However, we must also realize that users can submit staff applications as many times as they like. If this same user sent in their app, got rejected, then came asking me for tips on how to improve, it would be exactly the same as when they asked me BEFORE submitting their app. I would still be giving them hints and tips on how to get hired.
This is bad because these are things that THEY should know about on their own, and if they don't, then they are not fit for the position yet.
For example, if a friend comes up to me in math class and says "Hey Dust! What's the answer to algebra question 5?" and I give them the answer, they only know the answer, but they don't know HOW to get the answer or WHY it is the answer. The same goes for if a Moderator says "Hey Dust! Please look over my app." If I tell them Question 15 is looking a little iffy, then they'll change the answer-- but they won't have learned anything. They won't know why it is the answer and why their previous answer is wrong. This is something that users have to learn on their own through observation and experience.
As Broken and Katie and others have said, the thing with these staff apps is that you should know these things before applying. We do not expect perfect scores; that is what training is for, to work out the kinks and bits of error in a user's perspective or answer, or in art's case, technique or anatomy. However, we do expect a close enough representation of what Res standards are that we don't need to give answers and lessons on how to fix it.
Now, for art of course there aren't quite as many clear-cut answers as there are for positions like Moderator or Support, but feedback on art is typically a lot more complicated and time-demanding than anything else. On top of this, if someone applied for artist and a Staff Artist replied with "work on your anatomy", the user should not solely work on anatomy. They should constantly be improving EVERY aspect of their art.
Finally, a big part of being an artist is observation; an aspiring artist should be able to look at Rescreatu's art and their own art, and be able to know what needs some working on.
I know it is very disappointing to receive a rejection Rmail, and frustrating that you may not notice at first what you need to improve on, but it is not as simple as telling you what to do. ^^;; The most you can do is to keep on improving yourself, every aspect of yourself, keep observing and practicing, and then apply again.
I hope that helps, and good luck!!
  
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