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10:24am Nov 9 2012 (last edited on 10:26am Nov 9 2012)
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Artist
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to be fair dogs, cats and other domestic breeds are oftern that way due to human intervention its diffrent for wild animals/ the majority :) Although im sure your right when it comes to a few species BUT these would be very rare and unique cases. XD your fourm signature has put a very odd version of that "man I feel like a woman" song in my head. :P |
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10:39am Nov 9 2012 (last edited on 10:58am Nov 9 2012)
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Normal User
Posts: 1,314
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Yes, Neo. All domestic dogs belong to the same species, but as everyone knows they're capable of massive variation.
Say you only had two dogs on the ship - any breed you can imagine. I'll go with Labradors. Now, to produce something as extreme as a chihuahua in a few years' time, where would you receive the necessary genes for altering the Labrador's offspring's appearance to the point where you will have a chihuahua? Genes to create a mastiff? A greyhound? A Basset hound? A spaniel?
The same applies to horses, chickens, cows, sheep, cats, rabbits. How would you get a Shire out of a Thoroughbred? A Friesian cow from a Jersey cow?
Crossbreeding is just a much quicker form of evolution.
Look at Labradoodles. They're not a separate species to Labradors and Poodles. They're a cross of the two.
Specifically, a species is a group of animals that can breed together and produce fertile offspring. Cats are a species. Whales are a species. But mules, tygons, llama-camel hybrids... They cannot become a species of their own because they cannot reproduce. They are all born infertile.
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4:31pm Nov 9 2012
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Normal User
Posts: 2,503
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LOL wat, Zen? You silly. I am a pickle, didn't ya know.
LOL that's just what my mom told me but it was only for dogs. So, I don't REALLY know. Just random assumption. U GAIS R SO MUCH SMARTER DEN ME
>.<
 psalm 103:12 |-/ |
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4:46pm Nov 9 2012
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Artist
Posts: 3,205
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xD lol i didn't
:P "Man I feel like a pickle, Dodo do do do dodo" |
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9:13am Nov 10 2012 (last edited on 9:23am Nov 10 2012)
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Normal User
Posts: 655
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I was pretty worried this thread would turn into a trollfest or a hate spree but I'm glad the conversation is friendly :)
Anyway, there's other evidence for evolution as well.
A human fetus and a bird in its egg look extremely similar in the early development stages. In fact, a LOT of animals all look the same. link to an article here: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101215112815.htm
You can also find the exact same fossils in the exact same kinds of rocks from the exact same time period in different countries across the ocean. This is evidence for the moving of the continents, and evidence of the changing of the diversity of life over time.
Evolution and the passing on of genes can also explain why scientists are in a mad rush to make new medicines against bacterium. Bacteria have much shorter life-spans than more complex organisms like humans and dogs, so they go through a lot more generations and change a lot more quickly. The way bacteria reproduce also makes them prone to mutations, which sometimes helps to create new strains of bacteria. The fact that they're changing so fast means that medicines and antibiotics that used to work aren't working anymore because the bacteria are becoming immune to it.
Same goes for insects. Insecticides aren't as effective as they used to be, because sometimes when it's used, there are a few survivors that happened to, somehow in their DNA, be immune to the insecticide. These survivors breed and carry on the immune gene to other individuals and over time, majority of the species becomes impervious to the insecticide. Modern evolution!
I've never had the chance to read any religious works. But maybe God created evolution, too. My friend's father thinks of it that way.
(I'm agnostic, by the way.)
edit: there is actually still some debate going on about exactly how the dinosaurs died, but yes, the widely accepted theory of today is the meteorite theory. And yes, there is a gigantic crater in the Yucatan.
I also want to make clear that evolution is a theory and religion is arbitrary not because it is inherently arbitrary, but because there is no true direct proof for the lack of a god, the existence of a god, or the existence of evolution. All these ideas can have evidence against them or for them, but it's only an opinion because it's all still just theories. It has nothing to do with stupidity. It's just about keeping an open mind.
they/them/theirs :)
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11:48am Nov 10 2012
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Normal User
Posts: 2,503
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I think that God could have made all the animals sort of the same, but that doesn't mean they evolved, I guess?
And an ape's Y chromosomes are 'radically different' than human's.
http://creation.com/chimp-y-chromosome
LOL Zen, I've been a pickle since I was born.
It was my destiny.
IMMA PICKLEEEEEEEE
psalm 103:12 |-/ |
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1:51pm Nov 10 2012 (last edited on 2:15pm Nov 10 2012)
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Normal User
Posts: 655
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The thing is, there is overwhelming evidence that animals change over time, and that the Earth has existed for around 4 billion years. That's enough time to make a lot of changes. If everything was made the same way, then where did it start from? Surely not with the current pool of organisms, according to the fossil record.
Y chromosomes are known to evolve very quickly. Also, the Y chromosome alone obviously has to be very different, because apes and humans, despite being fairly close relatives, are still very different physiologically and psychologically. Furthermore, a Y chromosome is only one out of the 46 chromosomes an ape or human has.
Y-chromosomes evolving far faster than expected: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100113131505.htm
Chimpanzees are humans' closest genetic relatives. Their DNA is 96% the same: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/08/0831_050831_chimp_genes.html
edit: realized the latter link is outdated compared to the one you posted, sorry. I may have an explanation for the differences.
I'm reviewing creation.com's Q&A section and I have counters for all 15 questions. The rebuttals to some counters are also given on the website and I can counter those as well. XD
they/them/theirs :)
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8:59pm Nov 10 2012 (last edited on 9:02pm Nov 10 2012)
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Normal User
Posts: 651
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Sorry i just realized something. Religion vs evolution or religion vs creation? xD Dna samples, chromosomes and the structure of tle="Click to Continue > by CouponDropDown">stuff doesn't really have anything to do with religion. ''Evolution'' can happen in or sorts of way - ie human activity or environmental changes and it really has nothing to do with religion as well if such factors change an individual. We've honestly proved it ourselves. Takes twins for example. One can be a sporty guy, another can be an introvert - their bodies and appearances are going to change due to such environmental impacts. This has nothing to do with religion, even though individuals are 'evolving'. There's no where in the bible that states that 'all dogs must look the same ; and if they evolve, then it's against religion.'. No.
Just realized there wasn't even an argument topic in the first place. Forum starter just placed a very misleading ti tle and was slightly critical in tone. :) If the argument was about the 'Big bang theory etc' and 'God' then that's a different story. But let's not tle="Click to Continue > by CouponDropDown">get started on that shall we xD. End argument :/
n/a
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9:22pm Nov 10 2012 (last edited on 9:28pm Nov 10 2012)
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Normal User
Posts: 655
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Actually, your point about twins is not evolution. Evolution by definition is not the growth of an individual; it is, rather, the changes of a species as a result of the passing of hereditary genes, or changes caused by mutations that permeate throughout the rest of the population.
It just so happens that many people who firmly believe in the Bible, or even most religions, also believe in creationism.
The only place I sensed a degrading and/or aggressive tone was the original post, and that has, for whatever reason, changed now. I am by no means attempting to make any attack and am simply discussing a perspective, and I'm sorry if I made anyone uncomfortable with my easily-misconstrued-as-aggravated writing style.
lol I like to debate politely. My apologies if others dislike it.
Also, as an introvert who plays sports and lives a generally balanced life, I dislike that example XDDD
they/them/theirs :)
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2:06am Nov 11 2012
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Normal User
Posts: 651
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Whoops xD failed metaphor LOL. I'm sorry for the sucky example, i didn't intend to offend you in any way D; i just couldn't think of anything else as an example xD. But you get my point atleast :D.
I'm just so confused why people are debating over this because i don't see that 'connection' between scientific research on 'evolution' and the 'bible'. It's not like 'species-characteristic-transformation-through-time'is a 'sin'. whut.
But perhaps it's because I'm christian and i believe in the theory of evolution in species o_o nothing wrong with that. My point is Christianity+Evolution theories CAN go together so there's no point in arguing xD.
Unless it's fun to argue and make friends, go ahead LOL.
Lol why would someone dislike your debates. Polite debates are the best xD.
Re-read first post and realized its edited as you said. :D. Awesome.
n/a
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2:15pm Nov 11 2012
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Normal User
Posts: 655
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lol it's ok :P
You're right, there's not really a connection, people just generally link "bible" to "creationism," etc. Unfortunately Christians are stereotyped very poorly on the Internet, and they get automatically labelled as pro-creationism and ant-evolution often. And you're right, it's not and should not be a "sin," but sadly, some people do think it's so.
Yeah, I know what you mean. That was why in a previous post, I mentioned how some people believe that if God created evolution, but did not create organisms as they are today.
Some people I've met just really hate it when their views are challenged, and they get all "asdfwhaw" and stuff XD
I honestly don't mind if one doesn't believe in evolution because they don't think the theory is yet good enough, or because they "must see it with their own eyes," but I get disappointed when someone clings like crazy to a religious text and insists that the text is truth because it says it's truth (circular logic...) in other words, I only get aggravated when people are closed-minded about the situation.
Science and atheism and agnosticism, after all, are still all beliefs and "religions" in their own sense.
yey i went on big tangent 8D
they/them/theirs :)
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8:06pm Nov 11 2012 (last edited on 8:08pm Nov 11 2012)
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Normal User
Posts: 2,044
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honestly, I'm a Christian but I see how evolution makes sense. I think creationism and religion can coexist with evolution.
In my opinion, God did create the first beings - possibly by big bang, i don't know, whatever. What i don't believe is that the universe just suddenly came to be. (though i'm not really interested in arguing about that haha.)
But there has been evidence that creatures do evolve. Fossils, developmental stages of embryos, dna, etc. I don't think that in the beginning, God created every single animal species that is on earth today. Because animals do change over time.They probably did evolve from other species. It's unrealistic to think that after billions/millions of years, animals have not adapted and changed. And how would Noah fit all those animals onto the arc anyways? O_o
I think as Mac said, there are a lot of stereotypes floating around about Christians. We can be seen as people who absolutely disregard scientific discoveries because we are so bent on interpreting the Bible the way it has been traditionally interpreted that we don't have room to consider that most scientific theories and religion can coexist.
Aaaanyways. I'm sorry if i don't seem extremely educated on this subject. Right now i'm just accepting of the way things are at the moment, and I just thought i'd share my opinions with you all, as this seems to be a very non-hostile debate haha.
/late entrance into discussion
  <---HA by shino || Buck by Zen---> |
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9:49am Nov 12 2012
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Normal User
Posts: 2,503
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HUMMMMMMMM ALL DIS TEXT
WAT TO SAY NOW.............
PICKLES?
8D
I'm out of juice. *flops over*
psalm 103:12 |-/ |
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3:27pm Nov 12 2012
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Support
Posts: 1,586
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Why does it have to be one or the other?
Why can't God CAUSE evolution?
I believe this ^
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4:04pm Nov 12 2012
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Normal User
Posts: 1,314
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That's totally true. I'm far more open to the idea of a God that allowed evolution to happen, even though I'm not especially keen on the concept of a deity. But, as of yet, we've been unable to disprove their existence.
Perhaps He (or, heaven forbid, a She - why does a creator, a giver of life, have to be male all the time?) does exist. Until we find Him or Her, I don't trust any organisation - in any country - that has so much power and influence over others, all in the name of "faith". Leave people find their own source of peace and contentment. If Christianity suits someone then great. But it should never be imposed on another.
By myself and through what I have learned and seen alone, I've made up my own collection of "deities", in a way. Little imaginary characters and personas I enjoy thinking about, for the fun of it. I don't expect anyone else to see the world in the same way as me and I certainly don't think my version of heaven is the type that's awaiting all of us. But I'm happy with my daydreams, with my experience, with my innocence. As long as people leave me to my thoughts and don't claim that theirs are the "right ways of thinking", I'm happy.
Be content with what you have, and what you lack; what you know, and what you don't.
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4:17pm Nov 12 2012
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Normal User
Posts: 655
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OMG guys, God causing evolution is exactly what I suggested twice LOL [facepalm]
they/them/theirs :)
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10:26am Nov 13 2012 (last edited on 10:27am Nov 13 2012)
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Normal User
Posts: 1,314
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I know, Macdp. I just took my time responding, to everyone. x3 |
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6:17pm Nov 15 2012
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Normal User
Posts: 7,283
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I usually avoid these things but I thought Id poof in just to add.
The Bible clearly states that God said let there be light and there was light, Let there be the moon, stars, all the stuff that I cant type in order since I am on my kindle LOL. Anywhoo my point is, God is an amazing God that made all of this with just His breath. No science involved.
Im not here to bash you all or talk to the people about this debate; this is just for those of you that are Christian, I just thought Id enlighten that, you know? :D
... That is all. |D Have fun; its cool to find a place you can debate without things getting heated. ;D
Back from hiatus. Open to more roleplays!
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6:32pm Nov 15 2012 (last edited on 6:34pm Nov 15 2012)
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Normal User
Posts: 2,044
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ch; i understand and fully believe that God "made all of this with just His breath". Though, i am a little confused. I don't really understand why it's impossible that God used evolution to allow new species, or an existing species, to adapt and develop. I'm not saying that animals developed from the simplest of cells over millions of years; i do believe that God put the first full animals on earth (or at least, animals as we understand them today). but is it also possible that just the way God does things is being researched through and explained by science? O_o /is confusing myself now/
I may have misinterpreted that wrong, CH, but I've always been kind of unsure about this whole evolution topic and how it can/can't coexist with creationism, if you'd like to further "enlighten" me haha.
edit: oops. i missed the part where you said you weren't interested in talking about this topic. Owo /lurks thread, forever alone/
<---HA by shino || Buck by Zen---> |
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6:39pm Nov 15 2012
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Normal User
Posts: 7,283
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One reason why I didn't want to talk about it is because I'm not knowledgeable on it. Why tell you something when I don't even know enough about the other side? I don't know much about the theories on evolution and last time I debated with someone about it, they ended up calling me stupid because of it.
But I'd love to try if this stays friendly.
It's not impossible. Nothing is impossible with God. I'm saying that the word of God says that he made all of this with His words. His creation shouldn't depend on science and those theories because this is His. He made it all. God hates science.
I didn't mean the enlighten thing in a sarcastic way by the way. I just know that as a Christian, I'm supposed to help other Christians understand.
Honestly, I get just as confused about it as you do. I'm not as passionate about this subject as I am about maybe gay rights, abortion, etc. Mostly because I hear more about them. So, I'm sorry that I didn't help much.<3
Back from hiatus. Open to more roleplays!
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